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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
78
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Posted - 2013.01.21 19:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
It looks like these changes will nicely address burst tanking and armor fit agility. How about the resist / rep bonus disparity? Are there plans to buff normal reppers across the board or raise all hull rep bonuses to 10% to address the problem that local rep bonuses are widely viewed as too weak and useless compared to active shield and resist bonuses? |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
78
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Posted - 2013.01.21 19:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Allison A'vani wrote:This makes the hyperion very hard to fit, also your new mod is not as good as two faction reps. I have to say, the speed > powergrid penalty swap thing does appear likely to blow a crap ton of armor fits off the table. Bye bye to anything but the tiniest guns on any armor fit at all.
Powergrid is a penalty typically applied to weapon fitting, not defense. This is going to be a double kick in the nuts for already grid tight fits with large plates or reppers. Shield rigs basically look "free" after this, since they don't hose your fit, but "only" hit you with a sig radius penalty, which is not that much of a penalty in many cases. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
78
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Posted - 2013.01.21 19:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:The fact that nobody uses anything other than 1600mm and 400mm plates is why they are excluded from the bonus Maybe that's the reason you should just take the other sizes out of the game and buff the ones people actually use instead . . .
People prefer these sizes because when you're fitting for buffer you want the most buffer you can fit, and these are the "biggest" you can get on in the relevant ship classes. People put MSEs on frigates and LSEs on everything else, leaving SSEs to have not that much use really, once your fitting skills are up. You might as well buff SSEs for no apparent reason just because nobody uses them either.
The problem here is that the "biggest" buffer modules we have are fittable on less than the biggest classes of ships, so you have pretty wide range where nothing else makes sense to use. Of course that's going to make them look "overused." |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
86
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Posted - 2013.01.22 02:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Galatea Galilei wrote:Coming from a PvE perspective, active armor tanking is not unusable, but it's so bad relative to shield tanking that I can easily fit a cap-stable shield tank on my Myrmidon that tanks more DPS than a cap-stable twin-MAR armor tank, even though the Myrm has bonuses for armor tanking! You're better off ignoring the bonuses and fitting a shield tank to maximize your sustained tank.
The new rig only helps when overheating, and besides I can't very well use it when I need three CCC rigs, two cap rechargers, and a cap power relay just to make the dual MAR fit stable. The other rig changes just remove the speed penalty, and do nothing to affect the fact that even a twin-MAR setup on a bonused ship doesn't heal as much damage as a passive shield tank on a ship that doesn't even have resist bonuses.
The proposed changes don't seem to come anywhere close to putting a dent into the inferiority of armor tanking... Pretty much this. This whole set of changes seems like just throwing a weird, needlessly tweaky and kinda useless new module and yet another batch of one-off "must train to V" skills at the problem instead of just making a balance pass on the fundamentals.
If you wanted to get armor tanking back on track, you should have been looking at fundamentals like:
- Having the rep hit at the start instead of the end of the cycle - Making standard reppers run faster with the same cap use, or just rep more - Buffing hull active rep bonuses across the board to 10% - Buffing base armor resist values across the board to give armor tanking some sort of basis for seriously competing with shield features like passive recharge and dual/triple/quad/lolASB tanking
If you wanted to get clever dealing with the speed disparity, how about something really nice like a role bonus for some hulls that negates 80% of the armor rig / plate speed penalty for the designated buffer tank / PvP boats?
As it is, this doesn't feel like "balance" at all, just a random set of things that will bring a bunch of unintended consequences, aggravate the already out of control SP bloat that is going on with the "rebalancing," and not even touch the fundamental issues that have been discussed over and over here for ages. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
96
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:SARs are fine. Buff the repair rate of MARs and LARs so that they are similarly effective. Maybe modify them to take cap boosters as an optional fuel; that would free up the mid slot taken up by the nearly mandatory Capacitor Booster, but still fill the cargohold with cap boosters. There you go, a simple change that actually makes things better, with no new modules or skills. This way lie good things. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
98
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Posted - 2013.01.22 22:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I don't know if this is possible... but I think the Ancillary Armor repper would be much, much, much better if you could "chose" when to activate the "ancillary" portion...
Essentially, if you could use the rep at 3/4 t1 amount until you activate the ancillary reps to give you a boost to repping when you most want it, rather than just at the beginning of the cycle, it would be a much better module!
This is a good, and probably unconsidered point about the design. The ASB by design is only used when it is charged and then shut down until it is reloaded, so you don't use it at all until you need the burst. This thing though, with its weird "same cap use by gimped rep" normal mode, is something you probably will want to run as a normal rep a lot of the time. The obvious use for this thing is turning the typical dual rep setup into a burst triple-rep, with a somewhat gimped dual rep "normal" mode. And you can't do that with it empty, because it takes 60 seconds to load. So it has to sit there loaded and shut down almost all the time, waiting for when you need the burst rep. It would make some sense if there were a way to run it as a normal rep while it's loaded, and only trigger the burst rep on demand, so you don't have to wait until it is reloading to use it as a gimp normal repper. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
100
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Posted - 2013.01.23 12:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
You know, the current UI has a full however many degrees unused for "tabs" on each module. It would make sense to add a blue tab, 180 degrees opposite from the current green heat tab, that means "burn charges." This blue tab would not apply to things like guns that only work when charged, but it would function on modules like the ASB and AAR. So you can run the module in "normal" or "empty" mode as long as the blue tab is not lit, and it will only burn the loaded charges (for the burst effect), if you have the blue tab lit. People would probably never run an ASB with the blue tab not lit, but they might want to keep the AAR loaded and ready, but run it with the blue tab off much of the time. This avoids the problem that, as it stands now, the AAR can only really be used as a normal repper while it is reloading, which kind of defeats the way you have designed it. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
100
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Posted - 2013.01.23 14:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Since the AAR will have an onlinelimit of 1 and 60 seconds of recharge, any chance we will see the nanobot accelerator rig also decrease the reload time of the AAR? Cause else, 60 seconds without repps running will probably only be possible in a double rep fit, making the module almost useless for setups that only have space to fit one. If this module doesn't run in gimp mode while reloading, then it should. Otherwise the entire point of it is defeated. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
101
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Posted - 2013.01.23 14:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:Proposed Ancillary Armor Repairer Is just plain terrible. Its mechanics is gimmicky, i dont see how can you implement the option to choose will it use batteries or just repair at 3/4. It accomplishes nothing new, it does not add more fitting options or versatility, if you use reps you are gonna drop one and replace it with new module. And the logic behind the way it operates is kinda dumb. I agree generally, but there is a fairly simple way they could make burst mode selectable at will, and as long as the module also runs while it's reloading, it would at least be all that it can be. That might not be a whole lot, but it could at least do what they think they want it to do, with a couple UI and reloading mechanics tweaks. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
101
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Posted - 2013.01.23 14:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:I'm saying this phrase a lot lately since someone mentioned it, but it sums up the situation perfectly: putting the cart before the horse. To be honest, releasing everything half-done appears to be the new development model for this year; the "future of EvE" dev blog said as much. They're now working on every little thing in tiny little pieces all the time, so nothing is ever going to get released when it's actually done, or when the other five things it needs to make sense are done at the same time. You can criticize this pattern if you want, but it does have the advantage that it will guarantee there is always something fatally broken somewhere in the game, at any given time; and that's got to count for something. |
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Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
101
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Posted - 2013.01.23 14:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nikuno wrote:But if it continued to run whilst reloading what would be the point or the current armour repairers? They'd be totally redundant. ASB introduced something new - active tanking that was immune to neuting. The huge tank is a big plus, and the ability to fit mutiples makes it seriously OP. The AAR gains none of these. It remains a drain on cap and sensitive to neuting; it's 'burst' tank is more protracted than the ASB so more of a dribble of additional rep than a flood; only one can be fitted per ship. Please, for the love of keeping this game in some sort of balance, where is the rationale behind all this? I see ideas with promise being lumbered with a whole load of bad implementation making a bad situation worse. You can only have one AAR on a ship, so that's the point of it; it makes a single-rep fit into a burst dual-rep, and a dual-rep fit into a burst triple-rep (at the cost of having a gimped "normal" mode compared to a standard rep and eating cap boosters to get the burst, ofc). If it doesn't run while reloading and can't run in normal mode while loaded and ready, then the way it works makes no sense at all. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
101
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Posted - 2013.01.23 14:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nikuno wrote:1.For a single rep ship you'd ALWAYS fit the AAR to have the burst as an option 2.For a dual rep ship you'd ALWAYS fit the AAR as the first rep to have the burst as an option 3.For a triple rep ship you'd ALWAYS fit the AAR as the first rep to have the burst as an option I'd go with all normal reps if I (1) do need better sustained tank; (2) don't need burst tank ever; and (3) need the cargo bay or want to avoid futzing with cap boosters. If I want a sustained triple rep setup, then I still have to fit three normal reps (two for sustained dual rep tanking, etc.).
Normal reps will give better sustained tank, and this thing will allow for a very large burst tank, that comes with some costs (assuming they make it work the way it needs to work for it to make any sense). A new burst mod does not make sustained tank fits obsolete, except to the extent that they sucked already and still need to be fixed. This is why they should have started by balancing normal modules / rep bonus / resist bonus first, rather than just throwing a half-baked module into the mix and then having to deal with all the problems it creates, while still needing to balance all the old stuff as well because it's still needed, and still broken. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
102
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Posted - 2013.01.23 21:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Nikuno wrote: 1. Does it rep at the lower 3/4 level while it reloads or does it deactivate?
While reloading the module cannot cycle. Then it is completely useless. In order for this module to make sense at all, it needs to be able to run as a 3/4 normal rep all the time, with the burst on demand. You need to add a feature like I suggested a while back; a complement to the "heat" tab that lets us switch on the paste-burning burst mode at will. So you can load it up and use it as a weaker normal rep, and when you click the "overcharge" tab, then it starts burning the nanite paste and goes into 2.25x rep mode. When it's empty, it should reload while continuing to run as a normal repper. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
102
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Posted - 2013.01.23 21:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ctzn Snips wrote:Those are the questions I've had since I read the first post. I don't think the UI can operate with that many options. Either it's running with charges, it's running with no charges, it's reloading, or it's off.
Now I want to know how the the game will interpret that. If I run out of charges, will it start reloading, or keep repping with no charges until it's turned off and reloaded? Will it just turn off, and give the option to reload or operate? The way the ASB works, it keeps running until you turn it off. Once it's empty, it starts burning hella cap. So you turn it off when it gets down to the last charge, and when it ends on empty it starts to reload. (You could also let it keep running, and it will shut off when your cap is sucked dry in about 2 seconds, then it will shut off and start to reload.) Either way, it won't reload until it's off, and if you leave it running, it won't auto-reload. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
102
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Posted - 2013.01.23 21:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:If the AAR is set up in a way that it will consume paste while being overheated for no heat damage, then I think that's an acceptable change to the module that makes it more interesting, encourages a different mechanic for armor, and skill keeps the heat level (and costs) under control. So, when you run out of paste in the module, the rack would begin to generate heat (and damage) normally. I think it needs something different; a separate little tab 180 degrees from the heat tab we have now.
The supercharge or overcharge tab would not overheat; it would just activate the burst mode. Otherwise it would work functionally the same as heat. If you have the supercharge tab lit, then when the module is active it will consume charges. If the supercharge tab is not lit, then it works as a normal repper. This could apply the same to both the ASB and the AAR, although I doubt anyone would bother to run an ASB without the supercharge tab lit ever, because it eats so much cap when in "normal" mode.
You could ALSO overheat if you want, but I'm talking about a different mechanic, a new little blue tab on the module icon that will let us toggle the consume-charges burst mode on and off at will, the same way we do now with overheating. It's not dependent on heat, just a way to let us use the burst feature on these things in a way that makes sense.
If you think about it, you'll see that the "normal" mode is never, ever going to be available on the AAR without this control. It can't rep while reloading, apparently, and you will never run it empty, since it takes 60 seconds to load. Therefore the only thing you will ever do is run it in burst mode and then turn it off; it can't use its normal mode at all, because if you run it empty, then you have to wait 60 seconds in order to use the burst rep, which is never going to be what you want. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
105
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Posted - 2013.01.24 00:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Iam Widdershins wrote:Everyone is bitching that the AAR can't be used while reloading. This is the simplest possible problem to solve: Turn off auto-reload for the module. You can keep using it straight and pulsed for as long as you want after its charges are gone, and choose to start reloading it whenever you desire.
It's not that complicated, people. And then when you need the burst rep, you have to wait 60 seconds for it to load; which is guaranteed to be 59 seconds too long for it to do you any good. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
109
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Posted - 2013.01.25 23:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:I've already suggested that this skill be dropped and that this ability of reducing armour mass be included in the hull upgrades skill, so I fully support your suggestion. Indeed why not just reduce the mass of armour across the board fro everyone, why do we even need a new skill? Even better; add a really nice role bonus to the armor boats designated for the "attack" role that reduces the plate mass penalty by 50 to 80%. No useless SP bloatage needed, and it would add a hell of a lot more appeal to the BCs and cruisers slotted for this role that are expected to armor tank. It would also make far more sense than the widely reviled rep bonus on the Brutix. In fact, with some really well thought out actual BALANCING of armor role bonuses like this, they could forget all the odd-plate mass hocus pocus and skills entirely, and the whole thing would come out simpler and better. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
113
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Posted - 2013.01.28 15:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:[quote=Hakan MacTrew] Using an AAR without using up its charges is actually a very valid point. Splitting the button in half, one side for charges, the other for without, should do the job. I suggested several pages ago they should just add another tab, 180 degrees opposite from the heat tab, that means "burn charges." Call it the "blue tab," as opposed to the current green tab. If the blue tab is lit, then the module consumes charges when it is activated. You can light it when the module is on or off, same as heat works now. You can also un-light it at any time, with or without turning the module on or off. Without knowing all the black magic behind the current UI, it appears that a second tab would be a simpler and more conventional update to the UI than "split buttons."
The blue tab would apply to any module that has charges which you can selectively use or not use; both the ASB and AAR fall into this category now, although anyone running an ASB will probably have the blue tab lit at all times, since you never want to run it empty anyway, due to the heinous cap use. With the AAR though, the blue tab is a must have feature in order for the "normal" mode to make any sense at all. Without this control, you can never run the module except in burst mode, which defeats the entire point of its design.
Another thing the AAR needs to do is run in 3/4 rep gimp mode while reloading; otherwise, again, the point of it always burning cap and having a "normal" mode is defeated. Since they want this to work in a "different" way than the ASB, it needs to actually work in a different way, and that way needs to make sense. If not, then it's just some sort of gimp armor ASB with all the downsides and none of the advantages. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
113
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Posted - 2013.01.29 13:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Weasel Leblanc wrote:Sinzor Aumer wrote:Looks like we're not getting any extra bonuses on existing mudules, reposting from the other thread: CCP Greyscale wrote:We're not, in general and with exceptions, fans of multi-function modules. EVE fitting is about trade-offs, not about having your cake and eating it. ...He says that, and yet the ASB is a thing. Yeah, I love how they saw the light on neut-immunity, oversized fits, and multiple OP modules per hull only AFTER they put the ASB in, and now have no plans to change it. Oh, but they "learned their lesson" there, and now they "won't make the same mistakes again" with the AAR. So apparently the answer to every wrong turn they made with shield tanking in the last round is to pre-nerf everything they do to armor in this round, just to "balance it all out." |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
116
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Posted - 2013.02.01 11:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nikuno wrote:ITTigerClawIK wrote:on a side note and just general question to our devs here, why exactly do plates need grid to fit and also why so much of it, i honestly dont understand why it would need power to use a plate you quite literealy just weld onto the side of your ship pretty much. Game mechanics. Plain and simple. Every choice you make has to have some sort of cost within the game - for fitting this is in pg or cpu. The bigger the benefit the bigger the cost. They have a cost: speed. That's more than enough penalty on its own. Guns and reppers cost tons of PG because they do something that logically requires power, and they don't slow your ship down. If you want to drop seven 1600mm plates onto your ship and turn it into a freighter, with the glacial 60s align time and 50 m/s speed that goes along, then so be it. |
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Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
119
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Posted - 2013.02.01 14:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Making ASBs cap-free was a fundamental mistake that shouldn't be repeated. This is a great point. They made a mistake. SO UNMAKE IT. There is this unstated premise in every CCP post here about the ASB / AAR that the mistakes made with the ASB can't be undone. It's your game. Change it. People told you neut immunity was a problem when the module came out. Now you admit neut immunity is a problem, and you say you're not going to go down that road with the AAR. Fine. No problem. Good move. Mission Accomplished: Learn From Your Mistakes.
So when are you going to fix the problem you created by making the mistake in the first place? |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
127
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Posted - 2013.02.03 16:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
Quote:because they wouldn't be able to fire the ASB even with charges loaded This is exactly how the AAR works, and it is the entire point of taking away the neut immunity. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
129
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Posted - 2013.02.04 22:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:How come I can't fit more than one AAR? I can fit multiple oversized ASB modules that use zero capacitor, but not multiple armor reppers? They learned their lesson about making an overpowerd, neut-immune, oversizeable, multiple-fittable rep module with the ASB. So to fix the mistake they made with the new OP shield tanking module, they decided to pre-nerf the new armor tanking module.
See? All better now. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
131
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Posted - 2013.02.05 13:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:so why didn't they nerf the asb No need to. They nerfed the AAR instead to balance it. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
141
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Posted - 2013.02.12 12:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:As I said before, this is not the end of our work on tanking in EVE, but I believe it will be a useful step forward and I hope you all enjoy it once it hits on the 19th. Enjoy the useless new module. Armor tanking is still broke, but don't worry, we'll take another look at it in a year. Or three. |
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